The Last Jedi Ranks Lower Than The Phantom Menace

After stupidly boasting about the $1.3 Billion dollar figure, SJWs like to say things about The Last Jedi being the number 1 movie in this or that category.  But here’s the facts.

ultimatemovierankings.com publishes an All-Time Top Ticket Selling Movies list.  You can see the entire list on their site, but here are the bits relevant to us.

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That’s right, The Last Jedi ranks far lower than the much-maligned Episode I.

The sad truth is, that the only reason The Last Jedi even made this list at all is because of the Star Wars logo that was slapped onto it.

Thanks to Matt Vader for the tip.

24 thoughts on “The Last Jedi Ranks Lower Than The Phantom Menace

  1. It comes down to the bait-and-switch nature of the whole thing. People OF COURSE flocked to see the movie when it was initially released. And maybe even rewatched it a few times in an attempt to solidify their feelings on it. But then there was that precipitous drop from Week One to Week Two. The film made a ton of money, yes, but it was definitely front-loaded, and that financial success was not because the film had legs. I wouldn’t go so far as to generate a conspiracy theory, here, but I do wonder, now that rumblings have re-emerged regarding the possibility that CAPTAIN MARVEL’s box office numbers were inflated. THE LAST STRAW was getting trashed by fans from Day One, and was never a mega-hit with a vocal minority nipping at its heels. The proliferation of billion-dollar garbage movies only proves that the entertainment landscape is pretty bare and that brand-names command a lot of power. At least until after they go woke and get some failures under their belt. SOLO is pretty direct proof of the reaction to TLJ. Yes, it probably wouldn’t have done gangbusters even if TLJ had been adored, but it’s failure was likely a direct result of people hating TLJ. It’s always the subsequent films in a series which tell the tale of an audience’s reaction to a bad franchise film.

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    • SOYLO also failed because of the way LFL management and employees insulted fans and put them down. As well as TLJ being garbage too as you stated.

      But SW in general is failing in every category. Merch, Box office, Galaxy’s Scam, etc. The numbers are miserable everywhere there is a SW logo. IX will most likely do horrible as well. And that is more due to lack of interesting characters, lack of any plot or story that can tie up the entire 9 part saga.

      Me personally, I couldn’t care less about MaRey Sue, Jar Jar Finn, Jar Jar Rose and Poe. And these are the 4 characters that they are banking on to carry this one film across the finish line. Because when one looks at these 4 characters in the two films they have been in, they have done virtually nothing! These characters have no arc, no personalities, no…well nothing!

      The two films they have been in are over a course of say, 5 days max? A week total max? But definitely not longer then a week. MaRey Sue just got swept up in the story all due to her trying to save herself, Finn and BB-8. Ever since she got on the Falcon, she encountered Han and he brought her to Maz to get captured by Crylo, then start using the Force with 0 training and then beat Crylo at the end to escape in the Falcon.

      What have we learned about her in TFA? Nothing. She is just a junk collector who lives alone and then later learns she is strong in the Force.

      Then we have Finn. Who lots of folks thought having a storm trooper turn good guy as a “brilliant” plot line. Well there is nothing “brilliant” about it. Especially the way they presented it. He was never actually a storm trooper to start with. Yes, he was dressed up as one, but he never did anything bad that would make him running to the Resistance profound. And then the audience is supposed to “buy” this guy who was never actually a bad guy running to the side of the good guys, while being conditioned since birth to be a trained killer? Well they certainly dropped the ball regarding this entire plot point.

      Rose was just a proglodyte savage mouthpiece to virtue signal to the audience. But I bet in IX she will be in command of some cruiser named after Holdo because…reasons?

      Then Poe. In TLJ Poe was only there to be pushed around and insulted. There isn’t much to his character to begin with. Except being the plucky, nice hearted Rebel pilot. But the gushers of these films will claim that Poe wasn’t “entitled” to know the secret plan of Holdo. Because he was demoted. Yeah from Captain to Commander. He is still part of the command staff. A dwindling command staff at that. Shortly after the bridge was destroyed and Akbar was killed and Leia did her Mary Poppins impression(cringe), Poe was more valuable then he was given credit for. They will also say that Poe “could have been a spy” so he shouldn’t have been privy to the plan.

      Except this is the same Resistance that was all too happy to divulge confidential information to Finn in TFA about Starkiller Base! Finn, who admitted he was part of the FO hours earlier and the Resistance didn’t mind talking in front of him, yet Poe was left in the dark about a plan in TLJ all so he can be put in his place because no one wanted to deal with his, “toxic Masculinity!”

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      • I fully agree completely with your analysis, especially given how the characters all and all were just dang terrible, and simply could not carry forward. That being said, though, I have to state I’ve never been fond of the “they never did anything” criticism, mostly because that literally doesn’t mean ANYTHING to me (I go by the verb of “do anything”, meaning even walking is technically doing something). And while minimal, they still technically DID stuff (not that the stuff they did do was actually good or helped the movie, though.).

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        • What they did was not substantial or logical. It didn’t ring true, and that’s why people hate the movies. The lore was not respected, characters know and do things because the plot requires it, and there were no cohesive concepts which propelled the plot and the characters. The original STAR WARS is masterful in its plot mechanics, because it begins with single character and goal (Princess Leia is desperate to destroy the Death Star), and all of the other characters—good and evil—are drawn into that story for different reasons. And it all culminates in the destruction of the Death Star. Problem/plot thickens/solution. Classic storytelling. TFA, on the other hand is about…what? The crawl talks about finding Luke, and then, halfway through the movie, it suddenly becomes all about destroying Death Star 3.0. And then Luke pops up at the end, but just as a teaser for the next movie. TLJ’s plot, meanwhile, is a disaster. Rey trying and failing to enlist Jake, intercut with a slow-speed car chase, intercut with a pointless side-quest. By the end Rey achieves the plot goal of bringing Jake back into the fight, BUT IT ENDS UP BEING AN ILLUSION. And the side-quest is pointless, with the only resolution being the freeing of the space horses. And the slow-speed car chase ends with the remnants of the Resistance/Rebellion/whatever crammed into the Millennial Flamingo.

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          • Never said I thought what they did was good. Far from it, I made it clear that they WEREN’T good characters by any stretch, with substantial and logic being points against them. I was just saying them not doing anything at all wasn’t something I agreed with. Did nothing substantial, that I agree with, however.

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        • Thanks I get your point. I do make mistakes with stuff like that. And the way I wrote it was wrong and wasn’t accurate.

          So I thank you for the correction. But I know you understand where I was coming from. Because the characters did nothing as far as the story is concerned. If they did do anything it was minimal and only served to push the story forward. They learned nothing. They achieved nothing. MaRey Sue learns that she can’t turn Ben from the dark side, even only knowing him for hours. And a few Force-Skype sessions too.

          But MaRey Sue is still at a loss for what her “place” in everything is? But she knows she is strong in the Force, and doesn’t need training in it.

          Poe is still a upbeat, positive laced Rebel pilot. Though at the end of TLJ, he learns to check his “toxic Masculinity” at the door to all wahmen!

          Finn is all in on the cause of the Resistance because….? I have no clue why? In TFA, Finn is deployed on his first mission and he just gets shell shock as soon as he runs out of the lander. And he keeps claiming that he needs to get away from the FO because…? Well I have no clue as to that either. And the writers don’t seem to know why as well. Finn does say that he didn’t want to “kill” for the FO. But why? What was it that made him break decades of conditioning in the blink of an eye? If they were going for the bad guy goes good guy, they failed that. Because in order to sell that, he would have had to be a bad guy to begin with!

          And Rose is just…well Rose. She hates the 1%er’s and is an intergalactic PETA member. Oh, and she works behind pipes all day too…

          So what is left for IX?

          Crylo turning back to the good side? Yawn…
          MaRey Sue restarting the JEDI Order? Yawn…
          The FO losing to the Resistance? Yawn…
          The Resistance wanting to create ANOTHER New Republic? Because that is what the Resistance is now fighting for ever since the destruction of the Hosnian Prime system? Yawn…

          That is it. That is all the possible loose ends that IX can produce. But most of the faulty lies at JJ’s feet with TFA. TFA was made in a way that could only lead to an OT 2.0 rehash. And RJ only painted them into a tighter corner. He left the Resistance the underdogs just as the Rebels in the OT were at the end of TESB. And just from rumors and leaked stuff, which could all be false, but since it is JJ, I expect nothing less then a half assed rehash of ROTJ with Legends EU stuff sprinkled in.

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          • What TLJ comes down to is nearly three hours of pointless wheel-spinning, with lots of lame twists and misdirection thrown in to appear edgy and deep. Smoke and mirrors.

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            • Yep it was LOTS of smoke and mirrors. Because at the end of TLJ, there was no change from when it began!

              The only changes that occurred is that the Resistance has a much, much lower body count and that Snoke is dead and he really was one of the most pointless characters in the entire series.

              Oh and Jake we find out was a quitter and gave up on everything all due to things that he could have dealt with prior, and maybe he wouldn’t have had to run hiding with his tail between his legs. Jake was training Ben, and knowing that Snoke was corrupting him while he was training him! Yet just sat there and let this problem persist without dealing with it? WT?

              But that was all done so that all of the RJ nihilistic fan girls could swoon over how RJ destroyed the concept of the JEDI and the Force in one single film! Jake’s dialogue was done specifically to get the nihilistic fan girls panties wet by having him put down the JEDI and being dismissive of the Force.

              Jake Skywalker is a nihilists wet dream!

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              • I personally considered TLJ slightly better than TFA (though only because it at least made some effort to be different from TESB, instead of being a blatant copy/paste unlike TFA and ANH), but yes, overall, TLJ was a massive waste, and certainly contributed to Star Wars’ current death rattle.

                I’m not sure I agree with you about whether we should blame RJ for ruining the Jedi. While he most certainly didn’t help with their depiction, George Lucas himself pretty much ruined the Jedi as a whole long before Rian Johnson was even considered for directing a Star Wars film. Let’s not forget, it was George Lucas who made the Jedi out to be child abductors who gave them similar upbringing to Napoleon’s dogs from Animal Farm, and forbade them from having ANY bonds with their families or loved ones, not to mention based on Obi-Wan’s comments in Return of the Jedi and ESPECIALLY Revenge of the Sith (“Luke, you will learn that the great many truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view” and “Only a Sith deals in absolutes”), the Jedi came across as nihilistic relativists. In several cases in the Prequel Trilogy, and to a lesser extent ROTJ, they didn’t come across as much better than the Sith. Besides, the treatment of Luke was pretty much the result of JJ Abrams ruining his character in TFA (I’m sorry, but Luke would NEVER have been the type to chicken out over his nephew turning to the Dark Side, especially not when he still had actual allies to work with such as the New Republic. I mean, come on, at least Obi-Wan and Yoda actually ATTEMPTED to fight Palpatine and Vader before retreating, and they had the odds stacked against them far more than Luke did.).

                BTW, is there a reason why you’re nicknaming the Sequel Trilogy’s rendition of Luke as “Jake”?

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                  • Ah, okay. So Mark Hamill coined the term.

                    Also, speaking of Hamill and The Last Jedi, if there’s one thing besides his respecting the second amendment regarding muskets that I can give respect towards, it’s this statement he made about Luke’s character in TLJ:

                    “It is tragic. I’m not a method actor, but one of the techniques a method actor will use is to try and use real-life experiences to relate to whatever fictional scenario he’s involved in. The only thing I could think of, given the screenplay that I read, was that I was of the Beatles generation – ‘All You Need Is Love’, ‘peace and love’.

                    “I thought at that time, when I was a teenager: ‘By the time we get in power, there will be no more war, there will be no racial discrimination, and pot will be legal.’ So I’m one for three. When you think about it, [my generation is] a failure. The world is unquestionably worse now than it was then.”

                    Have to admit, for a leftist to actually admit that his 1960s generation was an utter failure, that actually deserves respect, especially when most leftists of that generation narcissistically insist they did change the world for the better when they clearly haven’t (case in point, George Lucas). And make no mistake, I’ve encountered plenty of leftists in education who insist that about their generation, like Richard Barton Palmer, for example: https://www.facebook.com/rbarton.palmer.7

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                • Well the Jake name is applied because the character of Luke is more like Jake Skywalker than Luke Skywalker.

                  I don’t believe the JEDI were ever ‘child abductors?” They were given the children on behalf of the parents because the parents wanted their child to be a part of the JEDI Order. These kids weren’t, “taken” against their will.

                  And they forbade attachments. And we can see what attachments did to Anakin and what that eventually led to. But that was due to their specific code at that time. Which wasn’t a bad code per se, but it wasn’t a great one either.

                  Though the code of the time was one of honor and sacrifice. It was one of discipline, understanding and one where they defended the Republic. They sacrificed things like attachments, having families etc. Just like the Shaolin Monks of the real world.

                  But Jake was to be the start of a new breed of JEDI. One that could erase the errors of the old order and try to begin with a brand new fresh order. But the movies fail to go into any detail as to why Jake and his order fell? We will probably never know?

                  As for Lucas “ruining” the JEDI? C’mon man, you know that isn’t true? The were the guardians of peace and justice throughout the Old Republic. They proved that in the films and TCW cartoons. They weren’t perfect, nothing is, but they sure AF weren’t the “bad guys” here!

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                  • “I don’t believe the JEDI were ever ‘child abductors?” They were given the children on behalf of the parents because the parents wanted their child to be a part of the JEDI Order. These kids weren’t, “taken” against their will. ”

                    You sure about that? Because this Holonet News article seemed to paint a completely different picture during the leadup to The Clone Wars: https://web.archive.org/web/20020810060701/http://www.holonetnews.com/50/jediwatch/1344_1.html And bear in mind, Lucas ultimately had to sign off on that bit for it to even exist at that time, especially when that was viral marketing for AOTC.

                    “And they forbade attachments. And we can see what attachments did to Anakin and what that eventually led to. But that was due to their specific code at that time. Which wasn’t a bad code per se, but it wasn’t a great one either.”

                    Yeah, unfortunately, the non-attachments thing doesn’t do so well for me. See, if I were to go by “non-attachments”, I’d probably behave like Albert Wesker did here and backstab my Padawan and, heck, anyone else I find simply to ensure I am not attached to anyone:

                    Either that, or how Barthandelus acted towards his most loyal follower:

                    Besides, Palpatine clearly didn’t adhere to attachments of any sort, backstabbing everyone he came into contact with, and if his trying to goad Anakin and Luke into killing him to turn them to the Dark Side and even his being genuinely excited at the prospect of Vader surpassing even himself and thus getting the Rule of Two deal, he doesn’t even have attachments to himself. I guess that makes Palpatine the perfect Jedi despite adhering to the Sith.

                    “Though the code of the time was one of honor and sacrifice. It was one of discipline, understanding and one where they defended the Republic. They sacrificed things like attachments, having families etc. Just like the Shaolin Monks of the real world. ”

                    Except Shaolin Monks don’t pretty much tastelessly imply that holding to families at all is equivalent to greed, or, you know, implying you should effectively take joy at their dying as far as I know (well, I guess Palpatine makes a good jedi. he certainly takes a lot of joy in people dying, if we were to take Yoda’s advice to Anakin regarding letting go to its most logical conclusion). I certainly know the Catholic Church doesn’t advocate cutting ties with families, certainly not taking joy at people dying.

                    Besides, if Matt Stoner’s novelization is to be believed, the Jedi barely gave any real thought to the Republic, especially when Mace Windu indicated that his setting up Anakin to spy on Palpatine was motivated more to destroy a friendship between the two than in actually safeguarding the Republic against the Sith or the Separatists, and this was BEFORE they learned of Palpatine’s ties to the Sith.

                    “As for Lucas “ruining” the JEDI? C’mon man, you know that isn’t true? The were the guardians of peace and justice throughout the Old Republic. They proved that in the films and TCW cartoons. They weren’t perfect, nothing is, but they sure AF weren’t the “bad guys” here!”

                    Really? Because saying absolutes are a bad thing and implying that realitivism is the biggest good isn’t exactly something that’s considered good or even redeemable. Vladimir Lenin engaged in relativism, even saying among other things “We must be ready to employ trickery, deceit, law-breaking, withholding and concealing truth… We can and must write in a language which sows among the masses hate, revulsion, and scorn toward those who disagree with us.” and “The best revolutionary is youth devoid of morals.” By being relativistic and rejecting absolute good and evil, you’re by definition devoid of morals, and by extension evil (evil is the absence of morality after all). So while Lucas might view that as a good thing, I do not, nor does my religion of Catholicism for that matter or God, and quite frankly, when they adhere to that line of thought, especially when PALPATINE of all people may have adhered to it based on his opera conversation with Anakin, it should give you pause regarding the Jedi actually being redeemable, let alone good (can they REALLY be good when they engage in the exact same philosophy barring light and dark sides that Palpatine, the big bad, does, gives a mixed message, and comes across as deeply hypocritical regarding the moral, protagonist-centered morality in other words.). There’s being flawed, and then there’s this… This more like what happened with that awful Maleficent movie back in 2014 where they turned Satan incarnate into a sympathetic good guy, and made Stefan, one of Disney’s best fathers, into a debauched rapist and backstabber of the worst sort. I sure as heck didn’t want the “heroic” Jedi to be effectively channeling Lenin or Foucault or Sartre by saying, and I quote, “Luke, you will find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.” Truth is not dependent on a point of view, it’s absolute, as even Jesus Christ and his father made clear, not to mention Mathematics.

                    Sorry for having to be blunt, but last I checked, moral relativism is something the BAD GUYS embrace, not the good guys, they’re generally more absolute about morality, at least, that’s what the Church taught us.

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                    • Look, I am not basing all of this with one line that Obi Wan said. I know Yoda and Ben in the OT are flawed individuals. They saw Anakin as irredeemable as where Luke didn’t.

                      But I am more talking about the JEDI Order as a whole. The JEDI way was one of dedication. Dedicated to being in tune with the Force. To learn and grow along with the Force.

                      The JEDI before the OT were like I said, guardians of peace and justice. They lived to help that Republic. And they kept the peace for 1000 years prior to Sidious’ rise. The JEDI put emphasis on training, guidance and disciplines in all areas of the Force. Which is a good thing. Those three elements are key to virtually anything, including real life. They are all part of the learning process.

                      And maybe Lucas changed all that regarding the JEDI or maybe he didn’t. But from what I remember was when the JEDI found a child that was Force sensitive, they would take them in with the parents permission. Because the JEDI wouldn’t force(no pun) them to be part of the Order. Like how Obi-Wan was going to train Anakin with or without the council. And the council couldn’t really do nothing if Obi-Wan was to take Anakin away from the JEDI Order.

                      I am not really judging the entire JEDI way based on some lines from one of its members. The JEDI realize that life isn’t peaches and cream 24/7. JEDI have emotions. They express them throughout the films. And the JEDI Order isn’t constructed by what one of its members states.

                      I am definitely not saying the JEDI way is perfect. But it sure isn’t a bad way either. Not a way I would personally go with if I was able to do so. Because I don’t agree with all of it. But most of it is a good way to live. Minus some of the stuff.

                      And I personally never considered the JEDI “heroic.” Being guardians of peace and justice and being heroic aren’t mutually exclusive. They conducted their duties in lots of different ways. They weren’t saints. They were imperfect beings that strived to be better.

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                    • “But I am more talking about the JEDI Order as a whole. The JEDI way was one of dedication. Dedicated to being in tune with the Force. To learn and grow along with the Force.”

                      Actually, they dedicated their studies wholly to the Light Side of the Force. If anything, they’re obligated to kill anyone who turns to the Dark Side, so they certainly wouldn’t wish to embrace the whole of it (that would imply adhering to both). The only one who adhered to both technically was Qui-Gon Jinn, and he was he was technically cast out of the Order, certainly cast out of the Jedi Council.

                      “And maybe Lucas changed all that regarding the JEDI or maybe he didn’t. But from what I remember was when the JEDI found a child that was Force sensitive, they would take them in with the parents permission. Because the JEDI wouldn’t force(no pun) them to be part of the Order. Like how Obi-Wan was going to train Anakin with or without the council. And the council couldn’t really do nothing if Obi-Wan was to take Anakin away from the JEDI Order.”

                      Maybe not, but Jonava Billane certainly points to them using force, and given that was in a site that acted as viral marketing for the film, I’d argue that pointed to force anyway. Besides, the Matt Stoner novelization for ROTS had the Jedi forcing in via majority vote Soviet-style to basically use Anakin to spy on the Chancellor for reasons that were closer to trying to sabotage their friendship and keeping Anakin under their thumb than in actually defending the Republic.

                      “The JEDI before the OT were like I said, guardians of peace and justice. They lived to help that Republic. And they kept the peace for 1000 years prior to Sidious’ rise. The JEDI put emphasis on training, guidance and disciplines in all areas of the Force. Which is a good thing. Those three elements are key to virtually anything, including real life. They are all part of the learning process.”

                      Eh, I really wouldn’t say they kept the peace for 1000 years, considering that for 1000 years, we had the Hutts basically taking over portions of the Republic to such an extent that despite technically being within the borders of the Republic (had to be based on Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, and Panaka’s comments), it was effectively no longer under Republic rule, slavery was widespread DESPITE being illegal, the Judicial Forces did a genuinely terrible job at maintaining order, piracy was pretty big, and heck, when it got reorganized after the Sith Wars to gut and dismantle its military, the Jedi Order pretty much treated the Jedi members of the Army of Light as pariahs, like how Lucas’s generation treated the Vietnam War veterans. I wouldn’t call that peaceful by any stretch. In fact, the closest thing there was to “peace” was just legislating away the military, which critics of Immanuel Kant pointed out that doing so is literally unenforceable and simply cannot work (and quite frankly, I hated that retcon of them gutting the entire military apparatus, especially when it was only created because George Lucas wanted to voice his hatred of any form of the military like all leftists).

                      “JEDI have emotions. They express them throughout the films. And the JEDI Order isn’t constructed by what one of its members states.”

                      Well, the OT, sure, but the PT thanks to Lucas pretty much depicting the Jedi as utterly emotionless just made things worse there. And unfortunately, in the case of Yoda, it kind of IS constructed by what one of its members state since he’s one of the higher ranking members, and ultimately, the top dogs, whether it be singular or a plurality, set the rules for what an organization or country is to follow. Besides, it’s not just Yoda or even Obi-Wan’s statements that have me call them into question, it’s also the likes of Mace Windu as well, especially when he himself violated the Jedi Code repeatedly, and I don’t just mean the whole “tried to kill Palpatine on the spot” bit. I’m also referring to his “best reason” for using Anakin as a spy for the Order, something about ensuring Anakin remained distant from the Chancellor, all to make sure their “Chosen One” was still firmly within the Jedi’s control. Talk about completely selfish and a very blatant lack of adherence to “non-attachments” regarding motives (and if I must be honest, Obi-Wan deserves some credit for calling out the Jedi Order for that stupidity, even if he ultimately submitted due to being outvoted).

                      “And I personally never considered the JEDI “heroic.” Being guardians of peace and justice and being heroic aren’t mutually exclusive.”

                      Well, they certainly were depicted as good guys, and I’m sorry, but I fail to see how demanding they reject even family bonds would make them good guys. It’s one thing to remain chaste, it’s quite another to depict them as not even bothering to release one of their members relatives from slavery because they want them to not adhere to any attachments to them. Not to mention, correct me if I’m mistaken, but didn’t George Lucas compare Obama to a Jedi in what he intended to be a very positive way, Obama, one of our worst presidents, if not THE worst president ever, who nearly turned out country into garbage? That if anything is even MORE reason to doubt the Jedi, especially if Lucas clearly tried to paint the Jedi as being like Obama in a clear attempt at shilling for him.

                      “They were imperfect beings that strived to be better.”

                      Well, to be fair, “imperfect beings that strived to be better” is actually the literal definition of a saint, so there’s that to take into account.

                      And it’s a shame I have to say this, since like you, I also thought the Jedi were good. Unfortunately, after giving some thought on the whole subject, not to mention reading up on Ben Shapiro’s explanation on the Force as a whole, to say little about the Jedi, and thinking over the entire ramifications of their philosophy ESPECIALLY if taken to their most logical conclusion (if you were to go by no attachments, you essentially get the Rule of Two, that can only exist if you literally lack ANY attachments or bonds with anyone), I’ve learned it cannot be considered good, certainly not comparable to Christianity, even if they DO have really neat powers. Besides, to be fair, the Sith advocated for much of the same things as well, they also dedicated themselves to learning the ways of the Force, engaged in training, discipline, and yes, even guidance. If they didn’t care about those things… well, Sidious would act more like Kefka Palazzo from Final Fantasy VI where he just blows things up willy-nilly out of utter nihilism via his Force Abilities and not give a darn about actually ruling anything other than saying “I’ve unlocked the ultimate power! Observe! Such magnificent power! You are nothing more than insects compared to me! I shall exterminate everyone and everything!” and giving a very nihilistic speech about creation and life.

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              • Yes, Disney has destroyed the heroic, disciplined and admirable role of the Jedi as established by Lucas for their own mischievous purposes on culture and society at large by pandering to (and celebrating) the petulance and moral relativism of those who aim to destroy the heroic and mythical role models for the younger generations. Star Wars is not the only victim, and I’m afraid it won’t be the last.

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                • Like I said above, George Lucas already destroyed that notion long before Rian Johnson had his time destroying it. Do I really need to remind you of Obi-Wan’s line of “Only a Sith deals in Absolutes” from Revenge of the Sith? Or how about his line of “Luke, you will learn that the great many truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view”? I’m sorry, but that was by definition morally relativistic and even nihilistic, those two statements. If the Jedi were even slightly heroic, disciplined, and admirable, they would strictly adhere to absolutes, not reject them in favor of relativism. In other words, Obi-Wan Kenobi would have told the truth to Luke about Anakin.

                  Do I like what Rian Johnson did with Luke and the Jedi? Absolutely not. In fact, I think he deserves a LOT of contempt for what he did. But I also realize that Lucas was just as guilty for doing that (and what’s even more sad is that the only reason those lines exist was 1. so he’d pull a CYA after pulling that retcon on Vader’s ties to Luke’s father by making them one and the same, and 2., so he’d push some Bush-bashing in the film).

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                  • I think I already had this discussion before. You continue to take things out of context while ignoring everything else that Lucas established (and the logic and reason behind it all). To claim that Lucas “made the Jedi out to be child abductors who gave them similar upbringing to Napoleon’s dogs from Animal Farm, and forbade them from having ANY bonds with their families or loved ones” is pure dishonesty and a failure to understand what the Jedi are meant to be.

                    I’ve already refuted those ridiculous claims on a previous discussion, but since it was all ignored and/or strawmanned, I’m not going to waste any more of my time on this topic with you. Sorry. Let me know if you decide to be willing to have a genuine discussion without ludicrous, baseless claims thrown in.

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                    • Yeah, the Lucas-bashing is absurd. In no way were any of the films blatantly shoving ideology down our throats. He may have been inspired by history and whatnot, but you’d have to dig deep without the aid of outside sources to come to the conclusion that, say, the Endor battle was a riff on Vietnam. And the whole thrust of the Jedi in the prequels is that there were too bound by codes and rules, whereas Qui-Gon (and, in the end, Luke) understood that the Force and the Jedi should be about compassion and going with the flow. The Jedi fell because they were arrogant and unable to adapt to the new breed of Sith and their machinations. As Matt Stover’s ROTS novelization so eloquently put it, the Jedi had foolishly spent 2,000 years training to re-fight the old Sith war, rather than being prepared for a new kind of war. Their complacency and arrogance were their doom.

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                    • “To claim that Lucas “made the Jedi out to be child abductors who gave them similar upbringing to Napoleon’s dogs from Animal Farm, and forbade them from having ANY bonds with their families or loved ones” is pure dishonesty and a failure to understand what the Jedi are meant to be.”

                      Actually, it is not. I’ll even explain it in full detail.

                      For the child abductors bit, maybe I should direct you to the Holonet News site that was up and running around the time AOTC was released, which, you know, acted as viral marketing for the film. One of the articles dealt with the Jedi pretty much being accused of abducting a child. This article, in fact: https://web.archive.org/web/20020810060701/http://www.holonetnews.com/50/jediwatch/1344_1.html And bear in mind, the articles had to have been created with Lucas’s permission.

                      As far as the bit about upbringing for Napoleon’s dogs, do I really need to point out how the official excuse the Jedi Council gave for rejecting Anakin, who BTW was about 9 years old at the time, was because he was “too old”? I could understand them rejecting Luke due to being over 20, but nine years old being too old to become a Jedi is definitely not good. My parents thought it wasn’t good. The only other time I’ve seen them do that was in Animal Farm where Napoleon took Jessie’s litter to act as his guard as soon as they were born.

                      And as far as not having any bonds, they said no attachments, which as I pointed out multiple times before, basically requires you effectively act sociopathic to anyone around you. If I were to lack attachments of any kind to my fellow man, I’d kill them without even a second thought, and I even gave you plenty of examples of people doing that precisely because they lacked attachments.

                      Besides, “Only a Sith deals in Absolutes” is pretty blatant about pushing for relativism, and my parents were very unhappy with that line.

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                    • Replying to anonymous here.

                      Maybe not, but on the other hand, Lucas repeatedly bragged about the whole thing about Vietnam (and it’s not just ROTJ. Even the original movie was all about Vietnam and rooting for the Vietcong based on the 1973 story treatment here: https://otnesse.tumblr.com/post/162081709399/this-is-from-george-lucas-1973-notes-for-star In fact, it’s THAT bit alongside Chris Taylor making it very clear it was all about Vietnam that ultimately turned me against Lucas and the Rebels. And the starting bit was this this revelation made by Bill Whittle back in 2012: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns1m_aXJa58 ). What Lucas did with the Rebels is the EXACT same thing Hideo Kojima did with Che Guevara in Peace Walker here: https://youtu.be/usYtK3d2ydk And Kojima before then indicated that Big Boss was comparable to George Washington or Thomas Jefferson in Metal Gear Solid 2 via Solidus Snake: https://youtu.be/RyuquvI9S04 Now you see what I mean by being against Lucas, especially after his revelation on the Vietcong? When he boasted about it, and worse, even implied in AMC that he did so knowing full well that they were terrorists beforehand, I lost any and all respect for George Lucas.

                      And quite frankly, “Only a Sith deals in Absolutes” doesn’t point to being a stickler for rules, it if anything points to the exact opposite, thinking there ARE no absolute rules and you can just change them on a mere whim. A stickler for rules, if anything, WOULD adhere to absolutes absolutely, not willing to change the rules even if it means self-preservation. Same goes for “Luke, you will eventually learn that the great many truths we adhere to depend greatly on our point of view”, which doesn’t indicate being a stickler for rules, either. Quite the opposite, actually, they’d maintain there is only ONE single truth out there, and anything else are lies).

                      Besides, you are aware that George Lucas specifically compared Obama, of all people, to the Jedi, and clearly meant it to be a positive, right? Even though he was our worst president, and increased government interference by a large amount among other things?

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                • Yep. They turned the concept of the Force into a hocus-pocus magic show!

                  Anyone can use the Force now. No training, discipline or guidance required. Cough broom boy cough!

                  Training? Guidance? Discipline? A MaRey Sue craves not these things! Nor does anyone else who inhabits the SW universe either apparently…

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